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Another blown motor

stonewall

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#41
I have seen rods fail before. But that rod was garbage! snapping in two is one thing but splintering down the middle like wood is a whole different ballgame. I would say FCA has gone to the low cost provider on rods. GARBAGE.
 

Primetime Hellcat 17

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#42
I talk and follow this gentleman on IG. He is a really nice guy & knows it pays to play. His engine is being rebuilt already. Not sure if it’s done yet. The only thing that is mostly correct in this thread is that yes it let go during a badass burnout.
Can’t believe everything you read these days for the most part.
 

REDEYE

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#43
I talk and follow this gentleman on IG. He is a really nice guy & knows it pays to play. His engine is being rebuilt already. Not sure if it’s done yet. The only thing that is mostly correct in this thread is that yes it let go during a badass burnout.
Can’t believe everything you read these days for the most part.
Please send him an invite to this forum the next time you talk to him.
 

Linda's Hell Cat

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#45
I was in the staging lanes at the track and some guy came over to my passenger window to tell me my tape on my fender was coming off. I had to lean over to hear him because I had my helmet on. My arm must have been on the shifter and when I leaned back I must have knocked it into first. I did my burnout and somehow never noticed it was in first. The guy threw me off my ritual and I was off my game. I lined up and let her go and bounced off the rev limiter halfway down the track. I feel like a jackass even telling you guys. Car runs great and got my personal best the next day. This was with 1000 miles on the car. So yes it will stay in first.
I'm with you Mark. I like to be able to have complete concentration during the line up to launch.
It was not easy for me at first the track officials wanted me to move along faster than I could set my race pages and then making sure my boost a pump was on.
They did get use to it but it took them a while.
That's part of the reason they didn't know my HC was getting Tuned.....they just thought I was getting better and focusing on Top Cat [biggrin]
I was glad not to be focused on.
I don't think people should be so scared modify and Tune their Hellcats RE or Demons
They have to pick the right Tuner experienced with Hemi and know the parts that will help reach the ET goal.
But you always have to think if you play you're gonna pay.
I've been lucky. My husband knew when to upgrade and left me exactly what he wanted done with his Cars and mine!

Linda [burnout]
 

Linda's Hell Cat

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#46
@Octanewide I think I know AJ well enough that he is only quoting you because you started the thread.
I don't think he took offense in what your posted info was.
AJ and most of the Great Hemi Tuners will tell you the diagnoses of what happened.
It is true most Speed Shops do not want to take over another shops build.
People should do their research and really know the Speed Shop has Modern Hemi s out running well.
And especially the achieving the goal that is wanted. There is a place where you will also need to have an Experienced True Race Car builder because that's a complete game changer.

Linda [burnout]
 
OP
Octanewide

Octanewide

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Thread Starter #47
@Octanewide I think I know AJ well enough that he is only quoting you because you started the thread.
I don't think he took offense in what your posted info was.
AJ and most of the Great Hemi Tuners will tell you the diagnoses of what happened.
It is true most Speed Shops do not want to take over another shops build.
People should do their research and really know the Speed Shop has Modern Hemi s out running well.
And especially the achieving the goal that is wanted. There is a place where you will also need to have an Experienced True Race Car builder because that's a complete game changer.

Linda [burnout]
Agreed. No offense was taken and I've done business with AJ in the past and will continue to..

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

Linda's Hell Cat

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#48
Good ! You are right!

Inquiring minds should want to know who did the 90 pulls.
I remember this kind of crapp building my husbands Dragpak.......oh we are working so hard and up all night doing tons of dyno pulls.......shear BS and that little VA shop doesnt exist anymore and few others need to exit from that area.

Linda[burnout]
 

16GoManGoHC2

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#49
After inspecting piston and rod assemblies speedy sent me here is a brief of my deduction on what’s happening

Both assemblies speedy sent me bent in the pin area, parallel to the pin, both in the same direction. It appears the rods where not centered in the piston, both bent side towards front of engine down as if rods where offset towards the back of the engine. G force from launch or some form of thrust load from something? Block deformation??
The narrowing taper at the top of the rods is not helping matters either, it appears to be the weakest area of the rod especially at TDC where any offset in pin centering flexes that half the width of the pin bearing area some bright person put there to save weight, really?? And all this load is Increased tremendously before TDC if timing becomes a hair to advanced the load at TDC becomes extreme for the rod to toggle the piston over, it’s like the lock up in an injection molding machine toggle mechanism, it’s immense. When did the recent Redeye toss a rod? During a burn out, pinging off the rev limiter. What happens here when this happens? Same thing that happens when tires grab in a burn out, massive torque spikes in the driveline, what’s still trying to spin the driveline? The force on top of the pistons, what do the pistons see? Not even constantly building pressure of combustion expansion they see a jack hammer on top of them. If pressure is dead center on the rod it can take much more then if it’s off center, piston cocks and rod bends off to the side. What will a powder forged road then do? Break right under the pin boss and Splinter down the weak center like was pictured of that Redeye rod. I think it’s why autos fail more then manuals as the shock loading of the hard and shifting auto especially if tuned aggressively is trying to stop the pistons movement in very hard spikes. Add this one to the mix, timing. When is there the most advance? In the highest rpm. Say engine is turning 6500 rpm and timing is at max advance but something changes that rpm to a much lower number quicker then the pcm can pull the timing back. Lots of advance at a lower rpm and it would only take milliseconds (a few sparks only) for lots of super high cylinder pressure occur to bend one or many or all rods and the weakest one loss. But I know, why cylinder 2 and 7 so often? They are on the outer edges of the block which have the least amount of support in many areas, from crank journals to cylinder sleeve support. Metal starts to deform under pressure more then one can imagine. 20,000 lbs is allot of load on a piston top supported by a area 3/4” wide at best ( the pin in the rod tip) now that’s design pressure. What kind of pressure is going on under more boost (ie more cylinder pressure) then design to begin with and now add pre ignition into the equation. It’s no wonder they fail. I think if a few of my burn outs over the weekend at the track and how violent the grab was when they would stick, I changed my technique to finishing a burn out by pushing in the clutch not feathering it out until it grabbed, all that came to mind was bending a rod. Them came Monday, yesterday, and I inspected the assemblies Speedy sent me, God I feel blessed that in 19 runs I didn’t break a rod too.

What will I be doing this winter? Upgrading my pistons and rods and studding the crank caps and head fasteners. Big question at the moment is use a I beam rod like stock or an H beam rod??? Seeing this failure mode makes me lean towards a stout I beam rod with a wide top pin boss with full floating best pins money can buy wrist pins. And spray them with as much oil as possible to cool the piston bottoms.
 

Demoniccat

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#50
After inspecting piston and rod assemblies speedy sent me here is a brief of my deduction on what’s happening

Both assemblies speedy sent me bent in the pin area, parallel to the pin, both in the same direction. It appears the rods where not centered in the piston, both bent side towards front of engine down as if rods where offset towards the back of the engine. G force from launch or some form of thrust load from something? Block deformation??
The narrowing taper at the top of the rods is not helping matters either, it appears to be the weakest area of the rod especially at TDC where any offset in pin centering flexes that half the width of the pin bearing area some bright person put there to save weight, really?? And all this load is Increased tremendously before TDC if timing becomes a hair to advanced the load at TDC becomes extreme for the rod to toggle the piston over, it’s like the lock up in an injection molding machine toggle mechanism, it’s immense. When did the recent Redeye toss a rod? During a burn out, pinging off the rev limiter. What happens here when this happens? Same thing that happens when tires grab in a burn out, massive torque spikes in the driveline, what’s still trying to spin the driveline? The force on top of the pistons, what do the pistons see? Not even constantly building pressure of combustion expansion they see a jack hammer on top of them. If pressure is dead center on the rod it can take much more then if it’s off center, piston cocks and rod bends off to the side. What will a powder forged road then do? Break right under the pin boss and Splinter down the weak center like was pictured of that Redeye rod. I think it’s why autos fail more then manuals as the shock loading of the hard and shifting auto especially if tuned aggressively is trying to stop the pistons movement in very hard spikes. Add this one to the mix, timing. When is there the most advance? In the highest rpm. Say engine is turning 6500 rpm and timing is at max advance but something changes that rpm to a much lower number quicker then the pcm can pull the timing back. Lots of advance at a lower rpm and it would only take milliseconds (a few sparks only) for lots of super high cylinder pressure occur to bend one or many or all rods and the weakest one loss. But I know, why cylinder 2 and 7 so often? They are on the outer edges of the block which have the least amount of support in many areas, from crank journals to cylinder sleeve support. Metal starts to deform under pressure more then one can imagine. 20,000 lbs is allot of load on a piston top supported by a area 3/4” wide at best ( the pin in the rod tip) now that’s design pressure. What kind of pressure is going on under more boost (ie more cylinder pressure) then design to begin with and now add pre ignition into the equation. It’s no wonder they fail. I think if a few of my burn outs over the weekend at the track and how violent the grab was when they would stick, I changed my technique to finishing a burn out by pushing in the clutch not feathering it out until it grabbed, all that came to mind was bending a rod. Them came Monday, yesterday, and I inspected the assemblies Speedy sent me, God I feel blessed that in 19 runs I didn’t break a rod too.

What will I be doing this winter? Upgrading my pistons and rods and studding the crank caps and head fasteners. Big question at the moment is use a I beam rod like stock or an H beam rod??? Seeing this failure mode makes me lean towards a stout I beam rod with a wide top pin boss with full floating best pins money can buy wrist pins. And spray them with as much oil as possible to cool the piston bottoms.
If the day comes that I grenade my RE internals and FCA doesn’t cover warranty. I would follow your prescribed winter upgrade
As it is apparent those parts are the week link.
 

Speedy!

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#51
To be clear, the pistons I sent were not from my engine. I got them from a performance shop off a car that came to their shop with a damaged motor. Mike was originally going to run some destructive tests but realized they all had bent rods. I kept one piston assembly for a souvenir and after Mike emailed me what he was seeing I took a look and sure enough the one I kept is also bent.
 

Magnified

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#52
Holy Crap!!!!!

From my personal experience working with AJ loading in the 1st Tune back in 2015 using a Diablo Tune into my Hellcat Charger to start the T&T and RD for Diablo and parts to make our Hellcats go Faster. You don't understand who you are writing about. ......

Linda [burnout]
After reading the various statements I think there may be some confusion or a misunderstanding (but I could be wrong). The guy whose car burned went to a tuner (probably local to him, and not named) who seemed to need 90 pulls and possibly did not install the pulley right. Later, the owner took the car to AJ who got it sorted out. I don't think MH was hammering on AJ at all, and does not need to be hammered on in returned. But like I said, maybe I read it wrong. I got from MH to use a reputable tuner if you have to, or DYI if you have the time, funds and inclination.
 

Magnified

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#53
My redeye will hit rev limiter before it shifts just about every time 1st to 2nd and sometimes 2nd to 3rd. That is with trans in track. 1st to second in sport.
I've noted before that I can't believe FCA would let these things out the door if in track mode (or whatever) you can jump the redline and bounce the limiter just nailing it. I think that would be poor engineering and something that might be considered a manufacturing defect... However, if this is all happening after tunes or mods, that's another story. All these systems and parameters interact and changing one thing can have unintended consequences somewhere else. Like with that original 4 wheel steering on the old 300ZX.
 

Magnified

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#54
I was in the staging lanes at the track and some guy came over to my passenger window to tell me my tape on my fender was coming off. I had to lean over to hear him because I had my helmet on. My arm must have been on the shifter and when I leaned back I must have knocked it into first. I did my burnout and somehow never noticed it was in first. The guy threw me off my ritual and I was off my game. I lined up and let her go and bounced off the rev limiter halfway down the track. I feel like a jackass even telling you guys. Car runs great and got my personal best the next day. This was with 1000 miles on the car. So yes it will stay in first.
Mark, I thought even in "manual" mode the computer will automatically upshift when redline is reached. Did it jump that? Don't feel like a jackass. we all benefit from everyone's experience.
 

Linda's Hell Cat

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#55
@Magnified this to me is the most important part of the article! Remember the the Demon that Trans caught fire and burnt up because it was not correctly cared about.


"Fortunately, all of those people along the road, carrying coolers full of cold drinks where quick to help. Golden opened his hood and passersby attacked the flames with bottles of water, coolers of ice and anything else that might slow the flames. Less than a minute later, a swarm of racers including Modern Street Hemi Shootout boss Dan VanHorn had run from the parking lot with fire extinguishers to battle the fire while other members of the modern Mopar community dug into the trunk to remove the fuel pump fuses in order to prevent the fire from continuing. All said and done, it only took a few minutes before the flames and smoke were gone, with the crowd gathering around the burned muscle car sitting in the “fast lane” of Woodward Avenue. "

@motorhead could know who some Tuners
As he posted who learns some HPT Tuning and think they are experts.
"Most tuners are utter trash. Consider for one moment who these people are: literally someone who bought HP Tuners online and started farting around, same as you and I could. They find a few key parameters (like raising the rev limiter and shift points) through trial and error (plus a little educated guessing), and blamo canned tunes for all! Think about it for a moment: Stage 1, 2, 3, 4, eleventy billion, all come as packages which includes a canned tune that is slightly tweaked to suit minor variances from car to car. Getting to this point required using your car as a test-bed - hence 90 dyno pulls to find a marginal improvement for that amateur in the article above. If you go back through the HP Tuners forum post history of most of the major players all asked novice questions (when they joined) about shit they claim to be an expert in, and charge big money for, today."

My point is I'd rather pay to play and have an expert Hemi Tuner and their opinion.
There are Tune stealers and try to pass off someones hard work as their own. But the newer years have more Tuning Calibrations to learn.

So you are correct @Magnified and I apologize to @motorhead and @Hemituner for taking things wrongly.
My point still stands that Hellcat powered vehicles should be Tuned by an expert Modern Hemi Tuner.

Linda [burnout]
 

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#56
Mark, I thought even in "manual" mode the computer will automatically upshift when redline is reached. Did it jump that? Don't feel like a jackass. we all benefit from everyone's experience.
It did not up shift. Maybe because I don’t use the paddles and have them turned off?
 

Bowtie Guy

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#57
Same here
No up shift in manual mode without hitting the + paddle
Dam Canadian cars
 

Hemiride

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#58
So I have re-read the article and I think its pretty clear that it wasn't me that put 90 pulls on the mans car but anyway. Here is a perfect example of what happens out there. In this case the owner of this car realized something wasn't quite right with his car and believe it or not tried to go to my competitors. They all turned him away because they didn't build it and knew it could be a problem so rather than rise to a challenge they ran away. After getting some things mechanically straightened out we did 4 dyno runs on the car then headed to the track. For those who read the facts and just not that I was named in an article where an engine had failed, I am really happy that the car was saved that day on Woodward due to the selfless acts of strangers who were car enthusiasts. If your going to take away anything from this realize that everyone is asking way too much out of these cars . If you are in dis-belief that adding 300 WHP to a STOCK engine with powdered metal rods may result in a failure I don't know what else to say.
Kind regards
AJ
Just to be clear
I was referring to the original tuner that needed 90 pulls to get a substandard tune. No way was I putting that on you.
 

16GoManGoHC2

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#59
These the 2 most relevant to our Hellcat engine failure points clips from the lengthy (but good read) article on I beam vs H beam rods. This is exactly what I’m seeing in the rods Speedy sent me. I think a robust I beam rod would suit us best. We’re not spinning 8k+ rpm so light weight rod really isn’t as important as a higher strength possibly heavier rod is, I’d prefer a stronger, heavier rod for my engines intentions at least. I never have wished for winter to arrive quicker but I do now. I hope I don’t have to say what the “bad incidents” are the OP was referring too :(

2A0F62EA-506C-4E68-8D35-176B93FAF214.png C08259BB-76F8-4E67-B856-B29528EB2A0A.png
 
Last edited:

stonewall

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#60
If this is the beefed up Demon internals, I'm not impressed. I would like to know if there may have been some pre ignition possibly here caused by poor octane. So many factors can cause something like this, But The ones I have seen in my past was due to early ignition, In some case's it does not take a lot. Wide open throttle and max boost. would get it done.
 

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