Is Racing on 93 "Safe"? Not really.

[DGatzby]

@Linda's Hell Cat seeing your car run so well at ChallengerFest and drive a long ways home, plus this race with Craig are what led me to buying Go Man Go. So thanks for helping lighten my wallet

This was in my M6 R/T and I was pretty proud to run so close. In the end I lost $100 as he got me, but the real kicker was I looked over at Craig while we were blasting down the track and he was on a Sunday drive. In my car all hell was breaking loose as I prayed I didn't miss a gear.

The exhaust valves on all but one of those cylinders looked completely caked up to me. Like 1/4" or more thick with deposit? Odd that one cylinder didn't have any? Maybe I'm missing something but that's a LOT of deposits. Looks just like Mike's that he said took a serious grinder to get off. I'm not sure running 93 would clean it up?

Wonder if that stuff had plugged the cats as well causing your issue?

IDK. I sort of have that theory, OR a large raccoon that I ran over caused it. It sure smelled like it was toasted, I had a hard time finding any fir under the car and did not think to check the cat out close. Could have been struck and that started the breakup. I agree, I have seen Mike’s, and a couple of those are caked up. The Octanium bottle does not hang out in my garage any longer. The art of raising my octane may be lots more expensive in the future as I buy $20/gal stuff instead of $35 bottles!

 

[Linda's Hell Cat]

@Linda's Hell Cat seeing your car run so well at ChallengerFest and drive a long ways home, plus this race with Craig are what led me to buying Go Man Go. So thanks for helping lighten my wallet

Oh you are Welcome! I have had so many guys tell me the same thing about seeing my Hellcat racing down the track. Someone said to me "Linda Dodge owes you some commission money"
Driving into the Hotel Parking Lot the 1st night under the lights I felt like a celebrity, with the crowd gathering around I had to stop right there. When I got out of my Charger, I kept hearing them say WOW This is the 1st Hellcat Charger I've seen.
Challengerfest was an awesome race to attend and I had an amazing time.
I am hoping I will be attend again some time!

Linda

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

There are issues that arise from using E85 also. That usually seams to be overlooked when the "it's the best race fuel recommendations start".
How many have had engine issues from stuck injectors or fuel pumps taking a dump from having E sitting for awhile.
There is a well known shop for another brand near our track. They used to get the injectors cleaned at the track all the time. (Tracks race shop).
Now they can do it themselves.
I discussed going to E with the track owner.
His words were don't race with it and park it for a week or 2 all the time. Race with it and then get gas to run on the street to clean it up.
Ya ya I know, many have done it and had no issues. Blah blah.
When it gets moisture that stuff is death to everything. Slowly or quickly. I don't care if it's made for ethanol or not. I have seen E85 fuel pumps that are stainless completely rotted out as well as lots of injector issues.
These cases are just with pump E10.
That stuff attracts moisture much easier than people think.
Just another view point and something to think about.

I’m no long time E85 user and not defaming your post here Jim but I just don’t get the how going to 93 cleans things up from what I have seen of what plugs and pistons look like running E85 verse Gasoline.

Plugs on E85 for 2500 miles



Same plugs after just 1/2 Qt of Octanium Unleaded in 10 gallons of gas and 3-400 miles of straight 93 afterwards.



Car is sitting with 93 in it, in warm garage for 6 weeks since starting and look at the rust ring where the piston was sitting. This is gasoline not E85!! 99.9% of moisture comes from the air it ingested last not the fuel.



Lucas makes a stabilizer just for E85. It’s what my car was stored with for the entire winter last year. I sent the injectors out to ID to test and clean them, their spread was no little changed before to after. Me, I’m mixed in this whole thing of gasoline vs E85 storage thing. I mean how can the the fuel in a sealed tank absorb moisture from the environment it’s stored in when the tank is air tight sealed?? Especially if it’s filled to the brim with very little trapped air in the tank, don’t the fumes when filling push all the air out so what’s there to be absorbed?
All I know for sure is my plugs looked brand new until running gasoline, that sure cleaned them up??? 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[BULL]

^^^^^^


E85 porn

: )

 

[Speedy!]

Can’t wait to see what yours looks like Mean Cat!

Not sure what you guys are expecting. You'll see orange spark plugs. Lots of pics of that on the internets The real story is the O2 sensors, cats, and finally the exhaust valves which I doubt Meancat is gonna disassemble the engine to take a look at. It was the exhaust valves that were the eye opener for me. Now we've got two examples just from this forum where the exhaust valve was caked with MMT deposits.

 

[Speedy!]

I forget who it was that did it & they actually got the part #'s to find out. They (the dealer) were CYA just in case some cats were getting plugged or falling apart already, then the reflash to add more fuel to COT & other areas in the tune.
Hellcats were coming from factory too lean.

When I first saw what the Hellcat WOT power enrichment was commanded to I was VERY surprised having run a supercharged Hemi previously. From the factory the Hellcat (and Redeye/Demon) are tuned what I would consider very lean. WOT power enrichment is commanded at 12.0 AFR (.87 lambda). That's what I expect to see on a NA car, 12.0 - 12.5 at PE. Forced induction I expect to see 11.5 (.83 lambda).

Having said that I expect this may have been some kind of EPA or gas mileage deal (just a theory) and it's the reason cat over temp (COT) kicks on heavy and early taking the AFR down to 10.7 (.77 lambda) which is extremely rich IMO. They did this as a back door I believe. Simply turning off COT and setting the commanded AFR to 11.5 should wake these cars up a lot with no other changes. I need to get a post recall tune to review. I'd be surprised if they were adding even more fuel to COT as too rich eats up catalytic converters. Seen it a lot.

I mean how can the the fuel in a sealed tank absorb moisture from the environment it’s stored in when the tank is air tight sealed?? Especially if it’s filled to the brim with very little trapped air in the tank, don’t the fumes when filling push all the air out so what’s there to be absorbed?
All I know for sure is my plugs looked brand new until running gasoline, that sure cleaned them up??? 🤷🏻‍♂️

You hit the nail on the head @16GoManGoHC2. I've been noodling that for a bit and injectors, fuel lines would be air tight and the tank pretty well sealed as well. I mean if you left it for ages perhaps an issue, but that would happen with anything. It takes oxygen to have rust/corrosion.

Having said that I have tested a few different gas stations' E85 and all are not equal. Some were cloudy, some were yellowish in color. I avoid those. I found one brand locally that is crystal clear like water and that's what I run exclusively.

 

[Mean Cat]

Not sure what you guys are expecting. You'll see orange spark plugs. Lots of pics of that on the internets The real story is the O2 sensors, cats, and finally the exhaust valves which I doubt Meancat is gonna disassemble the engine to take a look at. It was the exhaust valves that were the eye opener for me. Now we've got two examples just from this forum where the exhaust valve was caked with MMT deposits.

Yeah, I know I'll see orange on plugs & such, but does it affect operation or performance ?

 

[Speedy!]

Yeah, I know I'll see orange on plugs & such, but does it affect operation or performance ?

You're kinda missing the point. I don't wanna make this about who's "right or wrong" as that's not it. It's about educating people on what happens when certain decisions are made. Each owner will have to decide what's OK for them.

You can go back and find posts from me when I tested Boostane and my plugs turned orange. 2oz in half a tank is all it took. I don't ever remember that going away even after never running it again, my plugs always had an orange tint from then on that I remember. At the time I just said yeah it's orange so what, but race gasoline was a better option for me personally at the time so I never looked back.

We saw others post pics of their cats and O2s and they were also orange....meh OK it's orange so what. It might shorten the life of plugs, O2s, or cats but so can leaded race gas and those are all really just maintenance items anyway and eventually need to get replaced. If it happens sooner so what, the performance gain is worth it.

Then Mike posted pics of his heads. THAT is when my opinion changed. You do see the exhaust valves completely caked with MMT right? Like 1/4" thick or more? Now DGatzby shows his and the same thing. Replacing heads and exhaust valves is not a maintenance item and that also shows these deposits are cumulative over time. This is not something I would want in my engine and I'd never buy a car that had used it to any degree as a result. You've run it so long it probably doesn't matter now and you've not seemed very concerned so you're "OK" with it but I think it's important that others understand it's a thing before deciding to follow your foot steps there.

This thread was started because I guess there's some thing going around where people wanna say how fast their Hellcats are on "pump gas". I've gotten several emails and comments about it on YT. On there I just tell them don't race on 93 and leave it at that, not gonna argue on the internet ya know. Over here we're a closer knit group so I share a lot of details I don't bother with anywhere else.

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

When I first saw what the Hellcat WOT power enrichment was commanded to I was VERY surprised having run a supercharged Hemi previously. From the factory the Hellcat (and Redeye/Demon) are tuned what I would consider very lean. WOT power enrichment is commanded at 12.0 AFR (.87 lambda). That's what I expect to see on a NA car, 12.0 - 12.5 at PE. Forced induction I expect to see 11.5 (.83 lambda).

Having said that I expect this may have been some kind of EPA or gas mileage deal (just a theory) and it's the reason cat over temp (COT) kicks on heavy and early taking the AFR down to 10.7 (.77 lambda) which is extremely rich IMO. They did this as a back door I believe. Simply turning off COT and setting the commanded AFR to 11.5 should wake these cars up a lot with no other changes. I need to get a post recall tune to review. I'd be surprised if they were adding even more fuel to COT as too rich eats up catalytic converters. Seen it a lot.



You hit the nail on the head @16GoManGoHC2. I've been noodling that for a bit and injectors, fuel lines would be air tight and the tank pretty well sealed as well. I mean if you left it for ages perhaps an issue, but that would happen with anything. It takes oxygen to have rust/corrosion.

Having said that I have tested a few different gas stations' E85 and all are not equal. Some were cloudy, some were yellowish in color. I avoid those. I found one brand locally that is crystal clear like water and that's what I run exclusively.

Speedy, you sure on these lamda to AFR conversion numbers for gasoline?

With FAE I’m running around .793 lamda top end with high air charge, I seen to get the best power and least knock voltages there. Am I too rich??

 

[jonx96]

That's on the rich side. I'm assuming this is your e85 tune?
Also to convert from lambda to AFR the stoich you are using plays a part in this. Are your stoich points updated to match the proper stoich for e85?
I stick around .81 for e85 when in Power Enrichment.
As far as gasoline you have to remember Dodge uses 0.0722 for stoich on gas and the value they use in the PE table is
0.011 which converts to .87 Lambde for PE. Which converts to PE 12.02 AFR Stoich AFR13.85

 

[Speedy!]

@16GoManGoHC2 your chart assumes a stoich of 14.7 for gasoline. For this discussion I used the Hellcat's stoich point programmed to 13.85 like @jonx96 says. That's why I put the lambda values next to it, that's what we should really talk about. Lambda is lambda

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

@16GoManGoHC2 your chart assumes a stoich of 14.7 for gasoline. For this discussion I used the Hellcat's stoich point programmed to 13.85 like @jonx96 says. That's why I put the lambda values next to it, that's what we should really talk about. Lambda is lambda

With PE at high boost my lamda is .793, this is my gasoline tune. (See alcohol content and PE and Lamda in log pic) It’s sounding like I’m pig rich then but the cars making max power with the least voltage coming from the knock sensors at this setting. If lamda is lamda what’s right? According to this gasoline calculator .793 lamda is 11.66 AFR on Gas scale about right where good safe power should be no?

 

[jonx96]

Lambda is lambda but in the afr conversion you have to take in to the fact of Stoich and the Value put in the PE table is not .79 it is another value and you have to convert it to lambda.

 

[jonx96]

1 divded by the number you have in stoich gives you afr stoich so 1/0.0722
1/(.0722+PEValue) = AFR Power enrichment

 

[Speedy!]

@16GoManGoHC2 the Hellcat will use .0722 for stoich which is 13.85 AFR. To get what your actual AFR is multiply .793 x 13.85 = 10.98AFR on gasoline.

Richer than I'd set it to, but if you dialed it in on a dyno and made max power at that setting then it is what it is for your car.

The yellow highlight for FA Enrichment is the amount of PE your car is commanding to get to .793 lambda at WOT.

 

[JP426]

OK, I'm not really up on all the mathematical equations that some of you are very knowledgeable on.
After reading this topic, I have scheduled my 16 for the recall to have the cats replaced and the flash.
My car is stock except for a JLT intake and I go to the drag strip about twice a year for test and tunes. I make maybe 4 runs during those outings.
I usually run with 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank of 92 pump gas at the strip.
My question, is VP MS109 the fuel I should be adding to my 92 pump gas when I am running at the track and how much should I be adding to my tank?
You all are a great resource for us less knowledgeable Hellcat owners, thanks!

 

[jonx96]

@16GoManGoHC2 the Hellcat will use .0722 for stoich which is 13.85 AFR. To get what your actual AFR is multiply .793 x 13.85 = 10.98AFR on gasoline.

Richer than I'd set it to, but if you dialed it in on a dyno and made max power at that setting then it is what it is for your car.

The yellow highlight for FA Enrichment is the amount of PE your car is commanding to get to .793 lambda at WOT.

View attachment 63438

Thank you! for the life of me sitting here I could not remember the word I was looking for. I kept calling it the PE Value

 

[Speedy!]

Same same

 

[Speedy!]

OK, I'm not really up on all the mathematical equations that some of you are very knowledgeable on.
After reading this topic, I have scheduled my 16 for the recall to have the cats replaced and the flash.
My car is stock except for a JLT intake and I go to the drag strip about twice a year for test and tunes. I make maybe 4 runs during those outings.
I usually run with 1/2 to 3/4 of a tank of 92 pump gas at the strip.
My question, is VP MS109 the fuel I should be adding to my 92 pump gas when I am running at the track and how much should I be adding to my tank?
You all are a great resource for us less knowledgeable Hellcat owners, thanks!

VP MS109 is an unleaded 105 octane race fuel. It will work just fine. I'd shoot for a 98 octane mix in your stock Hellcat. That's about 5 gallons of MS109 to 5 Gallons of 92. That'll give you 10 gallons of 98 octane.

http://www.bazellracefuels.com/Calcs/OC1.htm

 

[16GoManGoHC2]

@16GoManGoHC2 the Hellcat will use .0722 for stoich which is 13.85 AFR. To get what your actual AFR is multiply .793 x 13.85 = 10.98AFR on gasoline.

Richer than I'd set it to, but if you dialed it in on a dyno and made max power at that setting then it is what it is for your car.

The yellow highlight for FA Enrichment is the amount of PE your car is commanding to get to .793 lambda at WOT.

View attachment 63438

Gotcha!! TY
Yep, FA E is what I was upping in the tune just in the bottom row of the table to richen up the mix at high aircharge.

Dyno in this tuning was 60-130 times, they kept getting better and better as I fattened it up then stopped so I went back a bit to where it made the best time and least amount of knock voltage feed back.